If only they had heard the warning in time

It's funny, Eugene Robinson makes a good point but then fails to wonder whether Bush's language is more subtle than he thinks:
If Bush were known for exquisite subtlety in his use of the language, I'd note that a horizon is, by definition, a line that can never be reached. But pigs will streak across the sky at Mach 2 before this president displays a diabolical mastery of semantics. His new "time horizon" formulation is just smoke, intended to obfuscate and stall. In six months, Iraq becomes somebody else's problem.
Yes, when we're all laughing or cringing about Bush's poor use of language, his "misstatements" about his intentions and his beliefs about how his plans are working, I often get a chill up my spine at the realization that, if you don't give him the benefit of the doubt about his morality, he has often literally told the truth - the war-making project is working, for example, if his goal is to impoverish our country and make his friends much, much wealthier. He has created an "ownership society", if his intention was to make it one in which there are only a handful of owners, and they control the society. He has increased "freedom" in the world, if he means freedom for himself and his friends to run roughshod over our mere ordinary lives. And, my all-time favorite:
They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
And that sounds like a cue for a song.
- Original article
- FILED UNDER: Guest Blogger
- July 22, 2008








Well Bush and speaking,
is about as oxymorinic as military and inteligent. But on other notes it seems that the Irqi people want the same as our next president.
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By rlm_dcbJuly 22, 2008 - 8:42amI still want to hear a couple of things from the contards
but despite asking repeatedly, month after month, none of our trolls seems to want to answer these basic questions:
1. What is your definition of "victory" in Iraq?
2. If the surge has worked, why can't we leave now?
On point one, I have yet to hear a single repub give quantifiable details as to what would constitute victory. It's always fuzzy, like "When the terrorists are gone", or "We'll stand down when the Iraqis stand up". Give me and the rest of the American people solid, well-defined goals for victory. At the very least, the military should have been demanding that before the invasion, and if not then, then at least sometime in the past 5 1/2 years. How can you know how to acheive your goals if you don't know what the goals are?
On point two, all I have seen is excuses whose only real object is to make sure we never, ever leave Iraq. Before the surge, we were told that it was too violent to leave. Now we are told that violence is way down. In that case, your objection to leaving is gone, right? We were told over and over that the Iraqis want us there. In reality, all polls taken of the Iraqi people show that the majority want us to leave, and even their government has politely asked us to leave. So, are we saying this "sovereign" government that we are so proud of doesn't have the right of a sovereign nation to tell an occupier to leave so it can control its own people, territory and destiny?
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By UffdaguyJuly 22, 2008 - 11:22amHey Uff, I'll give it a shot,
Without knowing the entire situation over there (nobody on this board knows the real situation), I would like to see their government functioning a little better and reasonably stable. I would like to see their infrastructure operating to at least 75% capacity. I would like to see the schools operating at 75% capacity. I would like to see their military and police force somewhere in the 80-90% range of independence from US help. Only the commanders on the ground have the knowledge to evaluate this aspect. I do not believe in a "Public Time Table". You and I have no right to demand a schedule from any of our armed forces. Things change so fast in a combat scenario that any time table given is just BS rhetoric. I might have set high goals for success, but it's my belief that if things are not operating at a least these levels, then the whole thing has a good chance of collapsing. The only thing that keeps the situation improving right now is the fact that we do have troops there.
As far as the "surge worked, why can't we leave", well the surge just ended. To "surge" means to increase. Well, we increased our troop levels, it has help immensley to quell violence, but can't leave just a couple of months later and expect things not to go back to the way it was. My hope is that by next March-April, many of my requirements will be close to being met. If we have to keep all of our troops at the present level or close to it to ensure this, then so be it. If things keep on improving at the current rate then having all the troops out by the end of 2009 will be possible. We will still have troops there past 2009 no matter who is in office. Both candidates have said this.
On you second point, I have always been curious as to who is getting interviewed over there. My guess is if you asked Shiites if we should leave today, most would say yes and if you ask Sunni's, many will say they want us to stay for a while longer to make sure things are stabilized. I don't believe the Iraqi government has asked us leave politely to leave. They have basically told us to get ready to start packing your bags. Thats fine with me. I do think that if they tell us it's time for you guys to go, then we should leave.
PS, you can't have Favre!
"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition
that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
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By jerrykramer64fanJuly 22, 2008 - 1:41pmJerry, last point first
We don't want Favre! He's about the only guy out there as old as McCain, and having him around would just take valuable playing time away from Jackson, who is the future.
Now, for the rest. First, thanks for being the first to actually state some measurable, verifiable goals to acheive. I am sure the generals would love to have such concrete goals to reach, instead of some vague "stay the course" or "we'll stand down when the Iraqis stand up" rhetoric. The American people certainly would appreciate it too.
We have spent billions of dollars and 5 years trying to reach those goals in a generic sense, and we have failed to bring the Iraqis back to even a pre-war level in many areas, such as water and electricity availability in Baghdad. My feeling is that part of this is due to Iraqi corruption, American contractor incompetence and corruption, and an open-ended committment by the US to stay as long as we feel like it. At some point, we have to be willing to take the training wheels off and tell the Iraqis that they aren't going to get any stronger if they don't actually take on the responsibilities for themselves.
The reason given by the administration for the surge was that we needed to give the Iraqi government breathing space for political and sectarian reconciliation. None of that has happened, and probably won't. Those aren't my words, those are the words of Ayad Allawi, who was the first post-war leader of Iraq. It's great that the violence has decreased, but that wasn't the stated goal of the surge in the first place. I used an analogy a couple of days ago that I think describes the situation. A guy goes to the doctor and the doctor says he has cancer. The doctor admits the man to the hospital, because he says the guy will die without cancer treatment. Weeks of treatment go by, and at the end, the doctor gives the guy the good news that he's cured the guy's heart disease. "Heart disease? I didn't even know I had that. But what about the cancer?" "Well", the doctor replies, "I couldn't really do anything about that, but at least now you won't die of heart disease". We are the doctor, and the Iraqis are the dying patient. We took care of the violence for the time being, but it is a bandaid, not a cure. What is the cure? Probably a civil war, sad to say. Our guys are just referees caught in the middle right now. When they leave, the war will start. If the only way we can stop the war is to keep 150,000 troops there, then that is unacceptable. We have more vital needs in Afghanistan right now, and as long as we keep this level of troops in Iraq, we don't have reinforcements to send to Afghanistan. That's what the head of the Joint Chiefs, Adm. Mullen says, and I will take him at his word. Not only can't we send troops to Afghanistan, we can't send them anywhere else should they be needed. Is it worth it to stay in Iraq if it ties us down so badly? Not in my mind.
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By UffdaguyJuly 22, 2008 - 2:03pmThe government has slowly been coming around.
Most of the time this news is buried on page 10 of the paper, so it doesn't get much press. I do wish they would get their shit together a little faster, but our country wasn't built in a few months, so I guess I can't expect more from theirs. Things are getting better, so I'll be patient a while longer. My hope is that if we can help get their system up a running, it won't be to anyones benefit to start a civil war. That is the reason there will be troops there for a while. Counter-insurgency troops(SEALS, Green Berets, Delta) will be there for a while to try and snuff out the lingering terrorists. My hope is that the Iraqi people are pretty tired of war and will push their own government to get their collective shit together. My nephew gets back from his first tour in a few weeks, but there is a good chance he will be going to Afghanistan instead of Iraq."Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition
that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
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By jerrykramer64fanJuly 22, 2008 - 3:06pmBTW Uff,
Who is Jackson???
"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition
that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
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By jerrykramer64fanJuly 22, 2008 - 3:08pmBy jerrykramer64fan July 22, 2008 - 4:08pm
By jerrykramer64fanJuly 22, 2008 - 2:41pm
---------------------
Isn't it amazing that-- in the face of his country's continued financial, military, and industrial decline-- jerry still has all these hopes for the country of Iraq, despite five years and counting of all evidence to the contrary? The audacity of hope...
____________________
"We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into peace."
"Power to the peaceful..." --Franti
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By SJerseyIndyJuly 22, 2008 - 3:50pmI think we've done enough in Iraq, and our staying there is only
delaying them from doing the things they need to do in order to become a self-sufficient nation. Hell, we tell our own citizens that 3 years is too long for them to recover from Katrina, and that 5 years is all the length of time you can be on welfare. Well, let's hold Iraq to the same standards we hold our own citizens too. Your 3 years in moldy trailers and eating government food is over Maliki.
As for Jackson, the Pack will be saying "Mr. Jackson" after he embarrasses them this season. He's a good quarterback that shows signs of being a real weapon. Considering he's only played in 12 games, he's done well. He was the only reason we almost got into the playoffs last year, (that, and the league's best rushing defense). Now we've made trades to get help with pass defense, so some publications are calling us Super Bowl contenders.
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By UffdaguyJuly 22, 2008 - 3:24pmBeleive it or not...
I don't have cable (TV that is) and come to think of it, I don't think I saw any Viking games except for the ones against the Pack. Was he playing then? What college is he from?
Play off...choke, cough, play,,, off,,,, gurgle, choke, did you say ppplayoff??? You must be reading the Spring Grove Gazette or something!
Wait, news flash, the Packers are now talking about trading Favre, news to come."Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition
that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
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By jerrykramer64fanJuly 22, 2008 - 4:06pmI don't think we should pull out for a while yet, but
it would be nice if we did something like the Brits. Find the most stable province and put out an announcement that on Dec. 1, 2008 we will be turning over complete combat control to the Iraqis. Sit back and see what happens. Maybe with a few not so gentle nudges, they might get the hint and start to step up to the plate. What really frustrates me is that you don't hear anything about the Iraqi citizens bitching to their government to get things moving. At least we hear that out of Iran.
Got to get back to work, have a good one Uff.
"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition
that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
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By jerrykramer64fanJuly 22, 2008 - 4:18pmNow come on, dittos!
You've got to admit THIS is funny...
I mean what are you, a bunch of whiners?
You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them.
---Ray Bradbury
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By LiberalIconoclastJuly 22, 2008 - 4:19pm