Shorter Mitt: Let the Auto Retirees Starve!!!

Boy. Mitt Romney let loose one festival of stupid on the NYT op-ed page today. He writes an entire op-ed making prescriptions for the auto industry. But in the whole op-ed, there are just two suggestions that aren't already being implemented: The first suggestion? Find some way to renege on the pension promises the auto companies have made to retirees:
Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.
Unlike that recommendation, his second recommendation is very sound.
The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.
Chrysler's Nardelli may make $1 million a year, GM's Rick Wagoner makes
$2.2 million a year, and Ford's Mulally makes $2 million a year, plus truckloads of bonuses. I absolutely agree these guys should take a pay cut (and all but Mulally said yesterday they'd be willing to take them--Nardelli said he'd be willing to follow Lee Iacocca's $1/year example). But it is more likely that these guys will take pay cuts in case of a bridge than in bankruptcy. (Also, some of them have put real limits on executive compensation and benefits already.)
Aside from these two suggestions, though, breaking a promise to our seniors and cutting the pay of top executives, every suggestion he makes is something that at least one of the Big Two and a Half are already doing.
Mitt predictably starts--after spending a long paragraph talking about how his Daddy turned an auto company around--by calling for new labor agreements.
new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors
Which is, of course, what the UAW negotiated. Last year. While wages and benefits haven't yet been entirely equalized, they will be, probably by 2010.
Mitt's next idea is to get rid of management--recruit new guys from unrelated industries.
Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.
I wonder whether Mitt told Mulally--recruited two years ago from the unrelated Boeing company--and Nardelli--recruited just last year from Home Depot and GE--that he considers them real auto industry insiders? That leaves Rick Wagoner as the sole auto industry insider
of the three. Mitt? You want to fire Wagoner, be my guest. Though that's going to be just as easy to do as a condition of a bridge as it would be in bankruptcy.
Though you might want to think twice about firing Wagoner, since he's doing precisely what Mitt wants--investing in long-term products.
Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years.
Of course, as Jonathan Cohn persuasively argues, the Big Two and a Half are much more likely to be forced to focus on short-term profitability in bankruptcy than if they're working through a bridge with strings attached. So if you want long-term vision, you're better off advocating a bridge, not bankruptcy.
Finally, after advocating for renegotiating union contracts and pension guarantees, Mitt then insists you shouldn't renegotiate contracts with dealers.
Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.
The American manufacturers have way more dealers right now than their sales can support; those excess dealers are one significant cause of price-cutting that eats at profit margins and destroys brands. Furthermore, our country will not be able to move toward electrical cars without changing the profit calculations of the dealers. There will be no automobile turnaround without renegotiating dealer
contracts. Sure, renegotiating these contracts might be easier under bankruptcy (if bankruptcy were viable, which it's not), but that's the one thing that Mitt doesn't want to do.
In short, Mitt offers one good idea (cuts in executive salaries), one horrible idea (renege on pension promises to retirees), and refuses to do one more thing that needs to happen to turn around the auto industry.
I don't know whether he's just this dumb, this unaware of what has been going on in the auto industry for the last half decade. Or whether he just wanted to get on the NYT op-ed page so he could call for cutting union wages.
But I don't understand how this festival of stupidity is going to help him run for President in 2012.
Cross-posted from Emptywheel.
- FILED UNDER: Guest Blogger, auto industry, Bailout, bankruptcy, mitt romney, op-ed, unemployment, workers
- November 19, 2008








Yep, that's right!
Keep paying full salaries to people who no longer work there...that should keep things profitable!
But don't fret...The auto bailout is going to happen, because Obama wants to pay off the UAW union and Jennifer Granholm, you know the governor in the state with the worst economy in the country (the Dems were in power for 30 years now, but that's just a coincidence).
Instead of paying Jeff Bridges to beg people to come to Michigan to fail their businesses due to high taxes, maybe she should start worrying about how to fix the state first...
Oh, wait...she's on Obama's economic staff...Planning to bring the financial success of your state to the rest of the country?
Welcome to the new age of Obamunism!
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By Jonathan_GaltNovember 19, 2008 - 4:15pmSo you were never good enough
or smart enough to get a union job, huh? You are just jealous. The Dems were not in power in MI for 30 years, you fuckin liar. There have been just as many Rep govs and senators and the Reps control the state senate right now.
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By hufflarry2000November 19, 2008 - 4:22pmAre you mistaken
or simply a bold-faced liar? They don't get paid their full salaries.
If you are a non-union worker, and you want to try to negotiate with your company's CEO to discourage him from closing shop here and moving it to China, what clause might you want in a contract that, as a non-union worker would not exist in the first place because it would be impossible for you to even get a meeting with the ceo in the first place on your own, to achieve that end?
What keeps things profitable is not having the limitation to access to other nations' markets because they tarriff the hell out of your American-made products, or flat out limit the number of units you are allowed to import. China is playing us like a blind gambler is played.
If Ford, Chrysler and GM automobiles were manufactured solely in America, and our government protected our fellow citizens' ability to survive in our economy with our cost of living and other expenses, and we had a government that was not in the back pocket of big multi-national corp, creating the situation to where they can maximize their ceo bonuses with zero obligation to the nation that makes those ridiculous salaries possible for them in the first place, and we did not have the trade deficit and the number of units we were producing were to satisfy the demand of billions of people instead of 300 million, think about the profits our American companies would make.
Think about how many jobs we would have here, if we needed a workforce big enough to supply billions of people worldwide.
The issue is whether you want to maximize the American dream for a majority of people in a democracy, or maximize it only for a select few.
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By AntillectualNovember 19, 2008 - 4:45pmBy Jonathan_GaltNovember 19, 2008 - 4:15pm
It's called the Bush bailout. We are bailing out people because of the Bush economy.
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By f u bush2November 19, 2008 - 6:15pmThose pensions
were part of the contract for services the companies signed when the workers were hired. It is nothing but deferred compensation. Imagine what your bank would do if you decided not to pay the rest of your loan after a while. Not funding a pension is no different. If the pensions are not fully funded now, it is only because the company pocketed the cash or paid it to execs and stockholders instead of banking it in the pension fund. IT IS THEFT!
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By gt6November 19, 2008 - 6:29pmGuess what gt,
When I was hired 31 years ago with the company I work for I was promised a lot of things. Retirees insurance, free life insurance, dollar for dollar savings plan, free health insurance while I worked and a cradel to grave job and retirement plan. Guess what, it all went to shit. I now have a cash balance plan for retirement, I pay 20% of my health insurance, I have to fend for myself if I retire after age 55 for health and life insurance and my 401K plan is not at dollar for dollar. Nothing is guarenteed in life. I dont care what was offered to the auto workers when they hired on, BUT NOTHING IS GUARENTEED! They(the auto workers) need to get with the real world and move on. They are overpaid, have exhorberant benefits and are not in line with the rest of American workers. I do agree that execs should not be making good money or bonuses when their companies are failing. They need to take their lumps first. But Detroit needs to get in line with the rest of the country.
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By fern55November 20, 2008 - 11:42pmAnd I think you are overpaid.
You are obviously an America hating right wing nut who is not worth more than min wage in the new liberal society. It is just amazing that you think that making alot of money is a bad thing. You are totally brainwashed or maybe just jealous because you were never good enough to earn alot of money.
No one cares what you think. You are a powerless minority in our country.
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By hufflarry2000November 21, 2008 - 12:06amIn the years worked when pensions were part of the contract
money was SUPPOSED TO BE set aside for that purpose. Other terms of your employment may change. You might get more money but forego the health ins. But that pension is supposed to still be there. Not to do so is theft.
Just because you got screwed and still support those who screwed you doesn't make it right.
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By gt6November 21, 2008 - 12:18amWhat a sad post by Fern.
Real scab mentality- I have no power, it's too much trouble to fight for my rights, I hope the boss does right by me, so I will help my boss take down my fellow workers.
Jesus, with a mentality like that, we would still have slavery and work in factories chained to our machines.
Sheesh!
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By thaelmann37November 21, 2008 - 5:53amPsst
...who's still in the White House?
*KAPOW*
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. ~~~John Kenneth Galbraith
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By nonexistent manNovember 19, 2008 - 10:12pmI watched the
auto big wig testimony before the Senate on CSPAN last night.
The anti-labor tone was absolutely disgusting. Only Chris Dodd made a brief pro-labor statement when he thanked the big three for paying workers in idle plants most of their wages.
The interesting thing is noone answered a significant question that was asked.
Why are your automotive plants more profitable in countries like China? (or any other industrial nations besides America)
The answer?
How much does Ford pay in healthcare premiums for Chinese workers?
How much does Ford pay Chinese workers and what kind of retirement benefits do these hard working loyal workers get?
What sort of labor laws do Chinese factory bosses have to adhere to?
How much of a tarriff is China placing on US manufactured imports?
How much of a tarriff is American placing on Chinese manufactured imports?
What's the trade deficit these days?
How many people are in China compared to the US?
What is the cost of living in China versus the US?
The hearing was worthless, because even the Democrats didn't have the balls to ask any of these questions when everyone was blaming the UAW for the demise of these companies.
I was disgusted with both sides because of their anti-labor, or labor-negligent attitude.
I hope Obama is the real deal. Emanuel, being of the DLC-Clinton-Democrat breed concerns me greatly. (NAFTA anyone?)
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By AntillectualNovember 19, 2008 - 4:25pmBy AntillectualNovember 19, 2008 - 4:25pm
"I was disgusted with both sides because of their anti-labor, or labor-negligent attitude"
You don't think there's just a bit of coincidence apparent when you look at which industries are struggling the most and which industries have the strongest unions? Airlines, automobiles, certain segments of the building trades, not to mention state governments and schools.
We've got three forest product mills near my area (2 paper, 1 engineered lumber). All 3 are union, but 1 in particular has kept the contracts and benefits at least reasonable. People there earn a living and can afford to feed their families, but the pay and benefits are definitely lower. That mill used to be the place where you worked when you couldn't get in at the other mills. At one mill in particular you've got employees buying brand new corvettes on the salary of a guy without a high school education that's pushing a broom. 2 of those 3 mills are now shut down, I'll let you guess which one is still open, paying their employees a living wage that is now quite a bit higher than the out of work employees at the other 2 mills.
Meanwhile Wal-Mart with it's aggressive anti-union stance is doing great.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 19, 2008 - 5:20pmYep, that's the kind of country that we want
jobs where you can afford to feed your family, nothing better. It is not unions that close down factories, it is the greed of the owners and corporations. Funny how the unionised shops did great till the advent of Reagan. Why do you wingnuts blame everything on workers? There would be no business without workers. It is all about jealousy with you people.
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By hufflarry2000November 19, 2008 - 6:07pmWhy does the left never
Why does the left never blame organized labor for any problems?
Business aren't around to provide jobs, they are there to make money. If you have to pay way above fair market value for labor, you won't be in business long.
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By jumpingjackflashNovember 19, 2008 - 6:45pmBy jumpingjackflashNovember 19, 2008 - 6:45pm
Well there is nothing holding you back from blaming the workers. Go for it.
JJ never asks for a raise and never accepts one without first considering whether it might be too much. He doesn't want to inflate wages you see.
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By f u bush2November 19, 2008 - 6:51pmSo, baby killer, how does a business make money
when no one has money to buy their product, like what is happening in the neocon economy now? How is union labor way above fair market value if the companies agree to it? Why are you so jealous of well paid union workers with benefits? Is it because you are a stupid hillbilly who lives in TN and you will work cheap because your rich masters tell you unions are bad?
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By hufflarry2000November 19, 2008 - 6:58pmBy jumpingjackflashNovember 19, 2008 - 6:45pm
No, you're right...businesses aren't around to provide jobs. And YES...they are there to make money. But do you think that it's right for a company to pay it's top executives upwards of $600,000. PLUS bonuses, and it's workers (who make it HAPPEN) only $27 an hour? And that's BEFORE the ay concessions. WHO is supposed to raise a family and buy the products?
Do you think that it's just FINE that, even though there were warnings, the 'big three' IGNORED them, by NOT giving us better cars than our foriegn competitors?
HELL...we could be driving around in clean, stylish, functional cars RIGHT NOW, had the captains of industry in Detroit not been so greedy and lazy. The WORKERS would have happily built everything that was ordered....in fact, they DO. All they want to do is "give an honest days' work for an honest days' pay". That's the Union way.
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By roadgoddessNovember 19, 2008 - 11:32pmBy roadgoddessNovember 19, 2008 - 11:32pm
Long ago I used to believe that the American workers just weren't motivated enought to compete. But quite a few foreign car manufacturers are building in the US now, some for more than 25 years, and not having the same problems.
Then I decided it must be about the kind of money being spent on research and development. But the reality is that worldwide, the Detroit 3 are spending more than any other car manufacturer, with the exception of Toyota, in which case I believe Ford is outspending, but GM and Chrysler are not.
So let's look at Honda as an example. Quite a few of Honda's models are made here in the US. And Honda is the only manufacturer worldwide that posted an increase in sales during the 3rd qtr of this year (as I recall). Yet, Honda rarely offers lower interest rates and never offers 0%. You never see Honda commercials going on about thousands of cash back. So it's obviously not the great sale prices and deals that's selling Hondas.
So what is the difference between Honda and GM, Ford and Chrysler? The most obvious difference is that Honda's US plants aren't unionized. From my seat that speaks volumes.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 10:28amNOPE
The difference is in Management. I'm more familiar with Toyota on this, but I understand Honda's model to be similar in many respects.
The dedication to quality from top to bottom is the key. Parts are inspected and checked BEFORE installation. Any worker on the line who spots a defect can stop the assembly line. (Saturn has copied this idea, but the question is how bad a defect does it have to be, and THEN WHAT?)
I heard the story of the new manager for the truck plant in Indian touring the Ky plant. This is a plant that builds half a million cars a year. After the tour he had a question. Where is the repair yard? WE don't have one. Then, where do you put the cars that come through with a problem? His guide pointed out 5 parking places. What do you do when they are full? We shut down the plant until we can figure out why there are so many. That said it all.
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By gt6November 20, 2008 - 12:20pm'Couple things, Einstein...
I never blame the unions because unions aren't the problem.
Only kool-aid guzzling ditto-heads are so deluded as to think our current problems are the fault of unionized labor (what little there is left of it).
"If you have to pay way above fair market value for labor, you won't be in business long."
That's exactly why you need unions, retard... to keep the fair market value of labor HIGH ENOUGH TO FUEL OUR ECONOMY WITH CONSUMER DEMAND, YOU STUPID FUCK.
AN ECONOMY CANNOT FUNCTION IF ONLY A TINY HANDFUL OF PRIVILEDGED PEOPLE HAVE ABSOLUTELY ALL THE MONEY, while nearly everyone in the nation is broke, fueling the economy WITH DEBT... as should be ALL TOO OBVIOUS BY NOW to even the most dim-witted Con-tard.
Did you know that Henry Ford solved his skilled labor turnover problems BY MORE THAN DOUBLING WAGES AND REDUCING THE WORK WEEK BY 20%... Besides reducing his turnover to virtually zero, Ford said paying his employees enough THAT THEY COULD BUY THE CARS THEY WERE BUILDING was good for Ford and good for the economy at large.
Did you know that, Con-tard??
Of course you didn't... YOU'RE AN IDIOT!
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By A GNovember 20, 2008 - 8:02amBy A GNovember 20, 2008 - 8:02am
"Did you know that Henry Ford solved his skilled labor turnover problems BY MORE THAN DOUBLING WAGES AND REDUCING THE WORK WEEK BY 20%... Besides reducing his turnover to virtually zero, Ford said paying his employees enough THAT THEY COULD BUY THE CARS THEY WERE BUILDING was good for Ford and good for the economy at large"
Outstanding. Let's examine the Henry Ford model for a minute:
From Wikipedia:
"Ford was adamantly against labor unions. He explained his views on unions in Chapter 18 of My Life and Work.[20] He thought they were too heavily influenced by some leaders who, despite their ostensible good motives, would end up doing more harm than good for workers. Most wanted to restrict productivity as a means to foster employment, but Ford saw this as self-defeating because, in his view, productivity was necessary for any economic prosperity to exist."
One of the reasons Ford treated his employees well was to keep the unions out. Did you know that?
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 9:50amBy Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 9:50am
So Henry Ford offered what the Unions would have asked for. The workers go what they wanted in the end. Yay!
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By f u bush2November 20, 2008 - 9:58amBy f u bush2November 20, 2008 - 9:58am
Right. Which is great. But what the company retains is the ability to hire the best and get rid of dead weight without interference from a union protecting a non-productive employee. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that unions haven't contributed anything, or that all or even most union employees are non-productive. But when one person slows production and/or brings morale down and that person can't be sent packing it can have a dramatic impact on everyone around them.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 10:41amBy Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 10:41am
Ok we get it. One day you people are here preaching about billionaires not having to pay taxes on their income off their stock portfolios and mismanagement of companies as CEO's. The next you are here telling us that laborers do nothign more than turn a wrench so they have no right to organize and demand higher wages.
It's pretty clear where you right wingers stand. Enough said.
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By f u bush2November 20, 2008 - 11:40amBy f u bush2November 20, 2008 - 11:40am
Great graphic, but lost me there. Who preached what about taxes and stock portfolios?
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 11:57amBy Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 11:57am
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By f u bush2November 20, 2008 - 12:00pmBy f u bush2November 20, 2008 - 12:00pm
www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1004876-1,00.html
I believe the term here is "Proud Scab."
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 12:08pm" Proud Scab"
That is an oxymoron, KW.
No such thing.
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By thaelmann37November 20, 2008 - 12:15pmBy Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 12:08pm
Good for you. Now go tell your boss you want less money because your salary, like most, is inflated because of those nasty unions.
We know where your loyalties lie brown noser,
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By f u bush2November 20, 2008 - 12:19pmBy Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 11:57am
Just like hatey. Now we are suppose to rehash the previous conversations? Jesus Christ. The right wingers on this board are constantly preaching about the billionaires having a right to low taxes. And now when I point it out I get asked where I came up with that? What a joke.
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By f u bush2November 20, 2008 - 12:17pmBy f u bush2November 20, 2008 - 12:17pm
Not once have I said anything to billionaires having a right to low taxes. Some here may have, but I haven't.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 12:20pmOh Really??
Then why are some people (CORPORATE EXECUTIVES) rewarded with MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR RUNNING MAJOR CORPORATIONS INTO BANKRUPTCY??
... 'splain me that.
Kill-Republicans
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By A GNovember 20, 2008 - 12:47pmBy A GNovember 20, 2008 - 12:47pm
Never said that wasn't a problem. Seperate issue though. But I will say that I don't think that any of the ceo's here are getting anywhere near the obscene amounts that some of the other CEOs of failing companies make. Also, if you don't offer pay that competes with other businesses how would one attract a leader that's worth a crap?
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 2:17pmI don't buy into your MYTHOLOGY.
American business worked MUCH BETTER when executives were payed MUCH, MUCH LESS.
ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE LESS!!
=======================
I'm sorry... YOU may think these people have magical powers, but they are QUITE FALLIBLE... as should be obvious to even the dimmest Con-tard by now.
It's a religion with you guys... a mythology you sell to people to control them.
HEY!!... THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!!
ANY TOP GRADUATE FROM WHARTON OR HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL, WITHOUT A LICK OF EXPERIENCE, COULD DO JUST AS WELL FOR 1/25th THE COST!
YOU'VE BEEN HAD!
=======================
You're so stupid you believe the absurd notion that wealthy people create jobs.
Bwaaah!!!...Ha!! Ha!!... I can't believe you bought into that!... YOU'RE AN IDIOT!
I'll tell you what creates jobs!
DEMAND FOR PRODUCTS!... THAT'S WHAT CREATES JOBS, YOU TWIT!
Are you trying to tell me that nobody will build a widget factory because they can only make 10 million dollars instead of 20 million dollars???
FUCK YOU! You must think people are stupid.
================================
DON'T BUY INTO REPUBLICAN MYTHOLOGY!
IT IS A HEALTHY MIDDLE-CLASS DEMANDING PRODUCTS THAT CREATES JOBS... NOT BEING A RICH PERSON. YOU DON'T NEED THEM AND YOU OWE THEM NOTHING - THEY OWE YOU!
Don't drink the kool-aid.
THERE IS NOTHING A FOUR-MILLION-DOLLAR EXECUTIVE CAN DO THAT A $400,000 EXECUTIVE CAN'T DO AT 1/10TH THE COST.
Don't buy into the MYTHOLOGY!... Don't drink the Kool-Aid!
Kill-Republicans
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By A GNovember 20, 2008 - 2:52pmBy A GNovember 20, 2008 - 2:52pm
You are something else. You're like a holy roller evangelical preacher, only for lefty ideals. It's kind of entertaining.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 4:09pmAnd yet
...you do not dispute anything he says.
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. ~~~John Kenneth Galbraith
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By nonexistent manNovember 20, 2008 - 4:11pmBy nonexistent manNovember 20, 2008 - 4:11pm
With AG it gets too tiring. There is no reason or discussion, there is only wild ranting, which is fun for awhile but gets old. Huffy is the same way. Discussions with gt, thael, uffda, etc. are much more interesting to continue as there are actual points made and thoughts/theories/philosophies to ponder.
I mean c'mon, do you really believe that to get the best you don't have to pay for it and that some college kid can do exactly the same? How often does a college quarterback make the transition to the pros and come out as a super star in their first year? Not too often. Business is no different. The whole idea behind that is that anyone at any given level of education can do the same job as anyone else around them. That's foolish. If that's the case why is one presidential administration better than another?
I mean Christ, a minute ago AG argued that Nissan, Toyota and Honda all have magnificent leadership while GM, Ford and Chrysler all have terrible management. So wouldn't it be well worth a hundred mil or so to get a couple of the top guys from one of those companies to come and turn one of the American automakers around? Seems like AG thinks it can be both ways. If it's bad it's the fault of management, but if it's good management doesn't matter. Makes total sense.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 4:22pmI think the point is
that changing a few faces is not the problem, especially if your whole pay scale is top heavy in the process. The management problems in the US auto industry go all the way down the structure and philosophy. If you are not willing to change drastically then don't bother, anything less is a bandaid. They've been paying more and more for the last 30, many times the rate of inflation, and things have only gotten worse.
Thanks and a hat tip for the props.
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By gt6November 20, 2008 - 4:37pmBy gt6November 20, 2008 - 4:37pm
Ok, I'll buy that, but I guess I'm saying that it can't be just about upper management. What upper management makes is a drop in the bucket compared to the legacy costs, healthcare costs, costs associated with propping up of failing brands, and union driven ineffciency costs that those companies have to deal with. Now examine all those things and you'll get somewhere.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 5:03pmI'll fix one
national Health Care. Done.
And I'm just not buying that union driven inefficiency argument. Toyota has no problem making a tidy profit in their union plant in California. Building small cars and compact pickups no less.
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By gt6November 20, 2008 - 5:16pmBy gt6November 20, 2008 - 5:16pm
Despite my righty credentials I gotta agree on the healthcare. That would solve a lot of problems in this nation.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 5:21pmWhere is it carved in stone
...that management and unions must, by definition, be diametrically opposed in all things?
Some of the most successful companies I've been involved with have been union shops. And in those companies, grievances were practically unheard of, because management worked with labor to make sure they weren't necessary. Productivity remained high, as did labor morale. And the employees could afford the companies' products...which is the simple, stubborn, irreducible FACT that the f(R)ight-wingers and anti-union sheeple-trolls are doing their best to avoid recognizing.
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. ~~~John Kenneth Galbraith
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By nonexistent manNovember 20, 2008 - 9:58amOf course I knew that... You're the idiot, not me.
Ok... So??... A power-mad, fascistic, anti-semitic, megalomaniacal coward was anti-union?... DUH!
I never said Ford was a good guy... I just said that EVERYBODY'S economic problems go away when we have a strong middle class.
======================
So you think everything will be Ok if we just trust the ARISTOCRACY to tinkle down... AHEM, TRICKLE down on us peons?
FUCK YOU!
BEEN THERE... TRIED THAT...... IT DESTROYED OUR NATION!... TWICE!!
Look, dude... I'm sorry about your stock portfolio but we average Americans are just going to sweep you aside.
It's a matter of the survival of the Republic... We just can't go on where ONE THOUSANDTH of the population earns more THAN HALF THE POPULATION OF AMERICA... and they own 80% OF EVERYTHING THERE IS TO OWN!!
=======================
You know what?... My heart bleeds for all those poor, poor rich people, shitting in solid gold toilets while our common ordinary Americans are bled to death.
Kill-Republicans
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By A GNovember 20, 2008 - 12:23pmCan anyone tell me what union the AIG employees were in?
How about the union that Lehman Brothers employees were part of? Or Countrywide workers? Or Citibank workers? It seems that the biggest crashes and biggest beggars for bailouts are all NON-UNION places. So how on earth could they possibly fail without the corrupting influence of unions? Maybe because unions are not the problem, unless you are the US Chamber of Commerce, which supports allowing illegal immigrants to work at US companies. In the capitalist fantasies of repubs, the only good worker is one that will work for less than the chinese, needs no health care or benefits, will work for 16 hours a day, and be grateful for whatever crumbs their masters deign to toss to them.
If that's the America you dream of, then I suggest you either go out and spread the word to the workers of America, or move to China or India. They are the models you are wanting to emulate.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
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By UffdaguyNovember 20, 2008 - 12:58pm"capitalist fantasies"...
Yup... absolutely fucking delusional
Thirty years of Ronald Reagan, Lee Atwater & Karl Rove, Limbaugh & Hannity...
THAT'S A LOT OF FUCKING KOOL-AID.
They just don't get it.
=====================
UNITED WE STAND.
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By A GNovember 20, 2008 - 1:19pmBy UffdaguyNovember 20, 2008 - 12:58pm
Good point. I don't listen to right wing radio but from what the trolls are posting here, I'll wager some money that Rush and the rest are bitching and moaning about unions a whole lot.
The right wingers just eat that shit up and they never stop to think that the banks that were the first to go down are not union.
I pointed out that the right wingers were blaming the workers instead of the CEO's and frightened twit started going off about not blaming the workers but "corrupt union leaders". He was basically trying to argue it was the high wages of the laborers to blame but it wasn't their fault; it was the corrupt union leaders. To me that implied that asking for better wages and benefits appears to equate to corruption in his eyes but he denied it. I then asked him to justify his claims of corruption. He first said that I got him on that one. Then he did a google search and looked for some corrupt union leaders.
Leaving the discussion of these union leaders aside for a moment, I have to point out that this was another example of a right winger getting something from right wing radio and spreading it around without knowing the facts. He just started flinging that talking point about union leaders about without knowing what he was talking about.
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By f u bush2November 20, 2008 - 1:35pmUNion construction workers
holding the line on wages is a large part of the reason you can charge what you do in your business. As the country has shifted toward the Walmart model,real wages for most Americans is down compared to 30 years ago. It is a downward spiral that affects everyone.
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By gt6November 19, 2008 - 6:35pmBy gt6November 19, 2008 - 6:35pm
That thought has crossed my mind. But I'm inclined to say that unions need the same kind of overhaul that the American automobile manufacturers need. A newer sleeker 21st century union needs to exist. Nonexistant pointed out above that some companies can have a peaceful co-existence between management and labor. And I think that the goal on both sides needs to be a profitable company that provides fair wages. But in order to be profitable sometimes a company needs to trim weight.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 10:44amHA!
Yeah, there's gonna be some overhauling, all right.
Kill-Republicans
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By A GNovember 20, 2008 - 12:44pmTwo history books from alternate universes.
One says we took a bullet for the future unborn.
The other says the future will take a bullet, because of what we did or failed to do.
What's it going to be. Your father's shortsighted generation stuck the question on you...pass it on, or not.
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By aaazzz111November 20, 2008 - 1:17amRomney has always been a despicable person.
He made a fortune selling out Americans and moving jobs to Asia.
Not one male in his family has ever served in our military.
It is always about the money.
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By Kemo SabeNovember 20, 2008 - 1:24amI find it
disgusting that neocons think that your education level should dictate your salary. How many doctoral degrees do movie stars or professional athletes have? How many doctoral degrees do MBA's have? How much does an MBA make compared to a primary care physician or college professor?
Maybe the neocons are right. If your parents couldn't afford to put you through college, and you could not afford to put yourself through college, you should in no way have the right to make a wage that will allows your children the privilege of going to college and doing any better at achieving the American dream.
Only the owners and management of businesses, who also don't have doctoral degrees, should make 500 times the salary of the people that actually produce the product that allows these businesses to prosper.
When managment is incompetent and does not produce a product that is in demand or of the quality that creates demand, it's time to blame those that manufacture it and claim they get paid too much.
The highest profit margin comes from slave labor, but we abolished that several years ago in this country. We will not allow a small group of rich assholes turn 95% of our population into slave labor. That's what that democracy thing is there for, regardless of the fact that our government has opened up worldwide slave labor to allow rich assholes to pad their coffers while ruining our economy.
You can't blame blue collar workers for producing shit-flavored cotton candy if that is what the management has decided is the flavor of the month.
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By AntillectualNovember 20, 2008 - 6:51amMITT... The Republicans didn't want to listen to his bullshit...
Why should we?
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By A GNovember 20, 2008 - 8:05amAs long as we are going to bail the Big Three out
why not go the whole hog and nationalize them. Have the shops controlled by the workers and management elected by them from a pool of qualified candidates. When management makes a major fuck up, like this one, they get voted out of their position.
I wholly agree with our friend jackflash's comment that under the current capitalist system companies exist to make profit, not create jobs. Under socialism, the opposite is true.
You tell me which system benefits the worker more.
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By thaelmann37November 20, 2008 - 11:19amBy thaelmann37November 20, 2008 - 11:19am
Then you get the 2 stroke, smoke belching, piece-o-crap Soviet Lada complete with wooden frame components. No thanks.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 11:32amThat is the stupidest thing
you have posted yet. Why do all you right wingers post something completely out of touch with reality when your "buzz" words are posted? Explain how nationalizing the auto industry would produce crappy cars.
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By hufflarry2000November 20, 2008 - 11:41amBy hufflarry2000November 20, 2008 - 11:41am
How can a fact be out of touch with reality? The Soviet Lada is a real life example of what was produced by a nationalized car company. Quality didn't matter because there was no fear of losing one's job or losing sales to a competing company and there was no incentive to build better car either.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 11:55amIt was produced in the dying Soviet Union
Although right wing policies have destroyed the economy, we are not quite as bad as the soviet union was, yet. You cant use that as a comparison.
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By hufflarry2000November 20, 2008 - 12:03pmThe Lada was an example of the Soviet nationalized
car industry, not an American one.
Why is coercion needed to create incentive? I would point to the culture of alcoholism and bureaucratic control of the means of production in the Soviet Union as to why the Lada was sub- par.
In the meantime, the brilliant design teams in the United States' private companies come out with monstrosities like the Hummer. Which is why they lost their ass and need to be bailed out.
You seem to apply your facts rather selectively, KW. Why do you assume that workers owe their bosses a damn thing?
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By thaelmann37November 20, 2008 - 12:26pmBy thaelmann37November 20, 2008 - 12:26pm
The light truck sales were the only part of the American auto industry that was profitable prior to gas prices rising. So I don't think that Detroit's current position is purely a result of the Hummer and other SUVs. The reality is that Detroit would have been hurting this badly some time ago were it not for light trucks.
Detroit with it's inflexible union workforce can't react to the changing consumer climate in America like the foreign auto makers can with their flexible non-union workforce (and lack of associated legacy costs).
I don't think workers owe their bosses anything. I think that unions are in the same boat that Detroit is, revise to fit the modern business model or die because they can't compete.
Create a union that bargains for wages, vacation time, etc. but still allows a company to be flexible and react to changes quickly (in other words the ability to cut employees that aren't meeting standards and won't narrowly define what each and every job title can and can not do) and you'll have a union that will survive in the 21st century.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 2:09pmYou're insane.
Look at what you wrote: "Detroit with it's inflexible union workforce can't react to the changing consumer climate in America "
You DO understand that it is MANAGEMENT that makes ALL the executive decisions, right??...
Oh, I get it!... always back to the canard that paying people a living wage destroys America.
Good luck selling that.
Kill-Republicans
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By A GNovember 20, 2008 - 2:27pmBy A GNovember 20, 2008 - 2:27pm
So you believe that ALL the Japanese and European manufacturers that have auto plants in America have been able to pick good managers and are run by competent people while ALL the American companies have been run into the ground solely by incompetent managers? And that a variety of people that have been successful in other industries ALL became bad managers and incompetents once they became part of the auto industry in the US (but only if they worked for an American manufacturer, not a foreign company, in which case they retained their skills)? That makes complete sense.
That's my point. Management has been hamstrung and unable to make the changes necessary to be profitable BECAUSE of unions and laws regarding franchises.
By the way, you'll be interested to know that the non-union workforce building the Hondas, Nissans and Toyotas you see on the roads makes as much as the union workforce building the Fords, Chevys and Dodges you see. So I guess I'm not blaming it on the people that want to make a living wage, but on the outdated system of job classification forced by unionization.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 2:52pmThat is a blatant lie!
The non union workers do NOT make as much as union workers. The benefits and job security is not comparable.
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By hufflarry2000November 20, 2008 - 2:57pmBy hufflarry2000November 20, 2008 - 2:57pm
The benefits are almost as good. And as far as job security, I don't recall hearing anything about Toyota, Honda or Nissan shutting down any of their American plants. None of those non-union workers are worried right now about whether or not Washington will bail them out. So how secure are those union GM jobs?
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 4:12pmIt depends.
How fast can those jobs be "right-shored", to quote Carly Fiorina?
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. ~~~John Kenneth Galbraith
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By nonexistent manNovember 20, 2008 - 4:14pmBy nonexistent manNovember 20, 2008 - 4:14pm
I'll assume that right shored means shipped overseas, since I really don't know what it means. I would say not very fast since those companies have invested billions in their manufacturing facilities and taken years to develop programs that are profitable in a country where manufacturing location matters, especially among certain demographics.
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By Kill-WhiteyNovember 20, 2008 - 4:26pmGM is finishing its plant in St. Petersburg, Russia
so I guess our bailout money will help struggling RUSSIAN workers instead of our own struggling workers. Puteee-Put will appreciate our support. I've looked into his eyes, seen his soul, and I know he only wants the best for us and GM.
My prediction is that if we bail out GM, it will keep them long enough to finish moving the majority of their production overseas to places like China and Eastern Europe. GM execs will continue to rake in far more money than they are worth, and when the next collapse comes, we can safely tell them to go to hell, because they will have so few workers left in America that we won't notice when they finally fold up the tent.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers