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Today's TRMS

By Vanessa Silverton-Peel

On today's show David Bender, host of Politically Direct and Rachel's political guru, will be calling in from Netroots Nation in Austin, Texas to let us know what's happening at the left blog world's prom.  And then Iraq expert Juan Cole stops by to talk about whether or not Bush has really agreed to a timetable for troop withdrawals in Iraq.

Comments

(49)

Note for David on Obama's name

David,

I suspect that Obama's name follows a tradition often used in his father's part of the world where a person's name is their patrilineage. For example, Obama's father's name probably means "Barack, son of Hussein (known as "Onyango" before his conversion to Islam), who was son of Obama."

"Dreams from My Father" seems to bear this out because a grandpa Hussein and great-grandpa Obama are mentioned near the end of the book. His name really ought to be "Barack Barack Hussein Obama" to indicate that he is Barack, son of a man named Barack. (This is probably where the repetitive "Boutros Boutros Ghali" name of the former UN head came from.)

In areas where vital statistic records are often non-existant, children learn their lineage as their names and those meeting them immediately know how and if they are related (and what obligations they have to each other).

"Hussein" may mean "beautiful" but I think Obama carries that middle name in honor of his grandfather more than anything else.

Thanks for your work.

Dumb question -- Please enlighten me

Gregory calls Rachel the "host" of her show. Females in the movies are called "actors." And brave women are "heroes."

When I learned English abroad, I learned about "hostess," "actress," and "heroines." Then I get here, and it is not quite so.

I think I am missing a history lesson here... could someone please illustrate? Immigrants want to know.

Hmmm... maybe this is a question for Ask Dr. Maddow.

Vanessa, do I still need to make the call?

cool_princessie

The suffix that indicates feminine gender is rapidly becoming obsolete when discussing a woman's professional or actual ability in comparison to that of men. For the most part, ability, or at least qualifications or assessment, is assumed to be equal; therefore, the suffix is dispensed with as an archaic label once used to distinguish women from men. In fact, the words you mention have actually taken on connotations of their own. "Hostess" generally applies to a woman giving a party, or hosting in a service capacity. "Actress" is still used occasionally, but can imply (though not necessarily) a secondary degree of seriousness. And "heroine" is often not heroic at all, but the woman saved or resued by the hero (male or female), or simply the female lead in a play. It is now assumed these words indicate stereotypes no longer applicable in their original meaning.

Anyway, that's the way I look at it. Hope it helps.

--

Dave

Support Peace

 

I've never heard the word

I've never heard the word 'actress' used in a way that implies less seriousness. I've never heard 'heroine' used in any way that wasn't heroic. The female lead maybe, but no more than 'hero' is used for a male lead and never as the person getting rescued.

I think the feminine versions of those words are used when someone is trying to be clear that they're talking about a woman. The origins of the terms probably come from English being a language of mixed origins. Some of our words come from languages that had male and female versions of things, some not. So there's no consistency.

cultural contrast

Thanks Dave!

Part of my puzzlement is that in Latin America the opposite is happening. For example, in Spanish the words 'presidente' and 'jefe' are considered gender neutral. Presidente=president, and jefe=boss. But with women becoming presidents (Ecuador, Chile, Argentina) and bosses, women are making an emphasis on de-neutralizing the words into presidentA and jefA. Words ending in "a" are usually feminine.

Even to me it sounds odd to say or hear those words because they are new, but I try to do it a much as I can. It sends the message that women can indeed hold those positions, rather than only the helm of a kitchen. That is why I kinda regret hearing Rachel defined as a 'host'.... I understand that 'hostess' means that she is throwing a party... but I just wish the female of the word were just as powerful as the male..... sigh.....

Granted, I need to concede something... the words 'presidenta' and 'jefa' are new words. They are a result of women getting to those places. They did not exist when I was little, unlike the English words we discussed here. So indeed, there are historical contexts at play beyond the meaning of the words proper..... But again, I wish that women did not have to adopt a male word in order to be taken seriously.

Quite honestly, TRMS is a party to my intelligence , so yeah, she is a hostess of a daily celebration of smarts. :)

Good.

That's a good sign, that you've never heard "actress" and "heroine" used as pejoratively as used to be the case. It was awful, and ubiquitous. Female college students also used to be called "co-eds," and everyone knew what THAT meant.

"Women drivers!" is another one, although I must say that when biking past an elementary school that's minivanned up, I see my death. You could assign some blame to the children in the minivans, however.

A college friend once bought a game from the Salvation Army called "Career Girls." Only seven options were available, let's see if I can remember: Nurse, teacher, stewardess, model...

Wow, here's a link to that game:
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/08/18/career-girl-board-ga.html

remember the "suffragettes" and "women's lib"

Back in the 1920's American women who were fighting for women's right to vote referred to themselves as suffragists, just as the voting rights activists of the mid-1800's had. Those earlier activists, some of whom started the Republican Party, made voting rights for African-Americans and all women part of their campaign. They saw women's right to vote just as important as that of blacks'. Virtually all of the men caved when it came to the actual wording of the 15th amendment itself. Although, because sex wasn't mentioned until the second paragraph, some constitutional lawyers of that era argued that it did give women the right to vote. Therefore Susan B. Anthony and thousands of women did attempt to register and vote in the election of 1872. One case, Minor v. Happersett, actually went to the Supreme Court and that Court's ruling gave each state the right to make their its own rules on who could or couldn't vote. This opened the door to poll taxes, literacy tests, etc.
In the early 1900's, as women's battle for political, social and economic power heated up it became standard practice for the mass media to refer to "undergraduettes" and "suffragettes". These were intended to undermine the seriousness and the importance of these women. The suffragists who picketed the White House starting in 1916 held up banners that quoted President Wilson's speeches on democracy and asking why he refused to back voting rights for women. They were accused of treason by the pundits of the time. They were beaten by mobs while the police looked or the women themselves were arrested. They were held in jail for days without being allowed to contact anyone outside. Their friends and lawyers who tried to locate them were lied to by the police and jail officials. They were given months of prison time. Some were beaten by their jailers, some were put in solitary confinement. They went on hunger strikes, and were force fed. When word of their treatment eventually leaked out public opinion changed from derisiveness to outrage at their treatment and admiration for their courage. And this set the stage for passage of the 19th Amendment in 1920.
And in the 1960's when women again became more vocal in their pursuit of equality their movement was derided with the title "women's lib". Oddly enough no one referred to the Black Movement as "black lib".

Excellent post.

I didn't know about the forced change from suffragist to suffragette, and the comparison between "women's lib" and "black lib" is good.

Here's another one: "undergraduettes." Oh wait--you did mention that!

Probably also from Dorothy Sayers I remembered "courgettes," but Wikipedia says that's a vegetable.

The German trend is also to try to encourage people to say e.g. "male AND female [every possible profession]," because German women say they're tired of hearing themselves be left out. To my mind it's a step in the wrong direction. That's probably because I'm from the U.S.; but who wants to constantly remind people of the difference? In a hostile environment, that works out to women's detriment. Soon there might be a slightly negative feeling associated by Germans to "female [every possible profession]" that's not associated with "male [every possible profession]" or even just "[profession]." As Simone de Beauvoir pointed out, men are humans and women are women.

In conclusion, sank 'eaven for leetle girls.

Dorothy Sayers

I love her Peter Wimsey novels and stories! I've been trying to track down her book "Are Women Human?". Have you read it? It sounds fascinating.
I remember taking German in high school and having to learn the gender of every noun. This was quite complicated since the gender of the noun seemed to have little to do with the gender of the thing it defined. For example, the word for "girl" is neuter. Perhaps the Germans could switch to categorizing all professions as neuter?

The Sayers/the Clemens

I own a copy of "Are Women Human"! As well as "Sayers on Holmes." You can get them from Amazon now. I've been rereading her novel "Gaudy Night" for... far too long.

Mark Twain, bless him, both tried to learn German and then wrote a wonderful, cathartic essay making fun of it.

Gretchen: Wilhelm, where is the turnip?
Wilhelm: She has gone to the kitchen.
Gretchen: Where is the accomplished and beautiful English maiden?
Wilhelm: It has gone to the opera.

"The Awful German Language," by Mark Twain
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html

In re: switching to defining all German professional categorizations as neuter: great idea. It looks like instead they're heading down the path to greater complexity, and the FrauenLesbenBisexuellenInnen support this 100%. Blame Alice Schwarzer's dark side? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Schwarzer)

I liked Charm School!

Did you see the link to the White Glove one? One of the goals is a new wardrobe!

Now, wouldn't there be an interest in taking the words back? I know that in many communities there are efforts to take back words that were once used pejoratively. Inga Muscio wrote a book titled with the C word. I haven't read it yet, but my wife has and she told me that Muscio wants to take the word back. (http://www.amazon.com/Cunt-Declaration-Independence-Live-Girls/dp/158005...). The book is on my never-ending and ever growing to-read pile.

I just love it when women who design Web sites call themselves Web Mistress rather than Web Master.

Please forward this to Cindy Sheehan Re:"Clout" Guest last night

.

Donate NOW to DEFEAT SoH Pelosi in '08 and hold DISINGENUOUS WARMONGER EVILDOERS ACCOUNTABLE ASAP here:
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sheehanforcongress-us/CindyAtCapitol125.gif
Click for Campaign Blog

Dear CS:

See the links below for footnotes to augment your arguments from last night's face off with our favorite giggling DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, Richard Greene Esq.:

Please pass along the following link, which is a shortcut to this AAR post: www.snipr.com/AirAmerica4Cindy


sheehanforcongress-us/SFCHeader3.gif

YOUR TURN: Click for "WHAT DOES CINDY SHEEHAN STAND FOR?"

Click for "WHAT DOES CINDY SHEEHAN STAND FOR?"

.

What about the war?

Did she forget to add her position on the military? I didn't see it in her list. Too funny!

Loose Lips

Paska!

Vittu! Haista vittu, perkele, saatana!

Jumalauta.

Hey, I'm a socialist...

...and Barack Obama is no socialist.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."--Pete Townsend

And you are in good company

Jesus was more of a communist than a socialist. But heck, a lefty anyway. For a little while after his death, the apostles were able to build a mini commune where people sold all their belongings and shared the $$ with all to get in.

But don't tell the Evangelicals that, especially Pat Robertson who owns African diamond mine shares..... one of THE most humane industries in the world. JC would be so proud.

Mopping the Floor

Dr. Maddow,

Thank you for mopping the floor with Mr. Oppenheim during your RTtWH one on one session today. It's been frustrating to watch his arrogant frat boy cliched arguments go unchallenged for the most part - unless you're there. David Gregory appears to be trying to give this guy a stage but he is woefully unprepared to be a pundit on this show. Even John Harwood is giving this guy a pass and not pointing out his lack of understanding. At least most of the other conservatives appear interested in these topics. This fellow looks like he's just there trying to boost his book sales and doesn't go any deeper than the conservative talking point headline.

Well done Doctor.
Enjoy your weekend
JT
Chicago

I should be working...

...but am having difficulties biting into that sour apple.

RFTWH = SHITE. A worthy successor to Tucker Carlson's show. At this point, I wouldn't name my dog Noah.

P.S.

P.S.: My last dog was named Alex P. Keaton.

Still puttering & not working

Hey, someone's teasing the big woman movie voice!

"Gestapo casual Friday sweater"
( http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/robin_williams_crashes_laff_hole )

Rachel! They identified a foot!

First of 5 feet found in Canada is identified

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25751813/

Doesn't matter

There's still an X Files story in this.

:winky:

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."--Pete Townsend

The Feet on NPR

If you're interested in the feet, there was a pretty good NPR story on it a week ago. It turns out that feet tend to separate from their bodies and, with their own sneaker life rafts, can easily end up on shore.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92470079

That makes sense, but

That makes sense, but there's still a bit of a mystery here. From what I can tell, this is an unusual amount of feet washing up. So why are there more dead bodies providing feet than normal?

TRMS Science Advisory Board (SAB)

Since we have so many new people on the blog, I'd like to ask all the scientists to identify themselves. True scientists are almost always allowed full voting membership in the SAB.

Thanks.

"Lay scientist" here

No degree, but life-long independent autodidactic study of anthropology, plus some college. Like I said: "lay scientist".

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."--Pete Townsend

Aw, shucks.

Not a scientist, only a subscriber to Scientific American and Skeptic Magazine. And a loud-mouthed schnook: "THAT can't be scientific!"

Roll call

Organic chemist.

Essic, I trust you're recording these results?

Rolling Call

Civil Engineer, PE

Roll Call

Does a minor in Physics count?

If a non-degree in anthro does

Then why not?

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."--Pete Townsend

Richard Feynman?

Have you read Richard Feynman's stories about teaching physics in Brazil, and learning to play the drums there? Fun.

I didn't know about that

But I heard some of his lectures, especially on quantum physics, on my MP3 player. It was a great experience, but I missed some because I was unable to see what he was writing on the board. Although it was great to hear his humor... I loved hearing his lectures on quantum physics because it was a new thing at the time, and he himself did not fully understand it, so he peppered the lectures with funny remarks about how it was totally different from the mechanical world in which we think we live.

Note to Current SAB Members (Voting and Non-Voting)

The Walgreen's about seven blocks from my house has a huge selection of fedoras on sale at the amazingly low price of $9.99 each.

Adopting fedoras as the offical hat of the SAB would require only a minor change to the rules.

Think about it and get back to me.

And give up...

...me sea cap'n's tricorn, with ye ostrich feather?

Well, maybe just for SAB meetings/postings.

:winky:

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."--Pete Townsend

It's almost creepy how you read my mind...

The instant after I posted the suggestion, I thought, "A fedora could really scuttle the Cap'n's piratical image/motif." My second thought was, "If he objects, I'll suggest that we wear them only while conducting SAB business."

And, now, here we are...

:big grin:

Speaking of "tough pirate image"...

...I wonder how baking bread and cookies, as I'm doing right now, fits in? Gives a whole new meaning to the nom de guerre "Crusty", eh?

:winky:

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."--Pete Townsend

Nom de guerre...

...nom de banlieu :)

There's been a crow war for the last four hours in the Schlucht between my building and the next. Had no idea how much racket two crows can make. At first I thought it must be another bald eagle--I once saw a bald eagle on the roof right outside my office window, staring at me (they're a yard high, and ferocious-looking!). It was accompanied and finally driven off by a murder of crows, acting in concert so to speak.

This is only two crows, yet I must take my piles of paper and go work in a restaurant. Glad for the excuse, on such a nice day.

I always get a chill...

Captain, when you talk like that, you sound like that character named Mr. Krabs in Sponge Bob Square Pants.

And yes, I have no life...

Do I have veto power?

No. Fedoras.

We should keep individuality in the SAB. Everyone can wear the hat of his/her choosing. Cap'n gets his tricorn, I get my Yankee hat, NJS gets her Mets or Rutgers hat, etc. If we were to all wear the same hat, it would indicate that TRMS SAB would actually be capable of coming to a consensus.

That said, now that we've been in existence for at least 2 yrs, I think it's high time we got ourselves a logo. Ideas?

:cheese:

New SAB Logo?

I suggest:

the fedora

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_(hat)

:cheese:

Fedora as logo

I am not opposed to this idea, although it may look a bit Dick Tracy-ish ... unless we use the Indy Jones version.

However...

...we might have copyright and IP problems, as Fedora is a Linux operating system.

Agreed

I have an Indiana Jones-ish hat. I wasn't thinking about him when I got it, but now that the hat conversation is going on... I love that hat and wear it all the time... AND Indi was a cool scientist... so I'll stick to my rebellious scientist image. A fedora seems... well... so well behaved!

Still on board with the fedora, BUT

We have to be sure ours doesn't remind anyone of Jack Abramoff.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/abramoff_court_ap.jpg

Or Jack Ruby.

http://surftofind.com/rubykill.jpg

Why Terry Pratchett Appeals to History Majors

(It helps to imagine that at least one of these characters is played by Eddie Izzard.)

There was a rattling behind Mr. Pin as Mr. Tulip pulled out his set of stylish barbecue tools.

'What are you doing?'

'That --ing zombie lawyer is going to end up on the end of a couple of --ing handy and versatile kebab skewers,' said Mr. Tulip. 'An' then I'm gonna put an edge on this --ing spatula. An' then I'm gonna get *medieval* on his arse.'

'How, exactly?' said Mr. Pin.

'I thought maybe a maypole,' said Mr. Tulip reflectively. 'An' then a display of country dancing, land tillage under the three-field system, several plagues, and, if my --ing hand ain't too tired, the invention of the --ing horse collar.'

McCain's flip flopping

Rachel:

That other night on Countdown you said that there should be a compilation of McCain's flip flops. Your request is now a reality. Steve Benen, who writes the political blog The Carpetbagger Report (I hate the name), has compiled the list complete with annotations. You can find a link to the list at his blog at www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com. By the way, there have been 66 flops and counting.

Welcome aboard to nmhank and coolprincessie!

While we are by no means an exclusive club, it's nice to know there are other scientists and engineers and science-admirers out there.

I knew there was another reason why I liked hank and princessie in addition to their informed, cogent posts--

:cheese:

Yeah, what Chemgirl said

A hearty welcome to TRMS SAB to nmhank and cool_princessie. Very glad you're here. As an honorary non-voting member, and as the Recording Secretary of TRMS SAB, I have duly enscribed your screen names in the membership rolls.

And don't sweat the fedora thing. Getting conformity or consensus out of us is like herding lawyers (you know, as in the old saying, "Ask five lawyers the same question, and you'll get twelve opinions").

(p.s. i just knew you'd nix the fedora as the official SAB hat, chemwhiz)

Comments

(49)